SUNDAY Q & A
Middle East-OKC connection
David Schippers tells Metcalf feds 'ignored' warnings of WTC attacks
Editor's Note: House impeachment attorney David Schippers recently discussed on Geoff Metcalf's daily Internet talk show evidence linking Middle Eastern terrorists to both the Oklahoma City bombing and the downing of TWA Flight 800. Author of the explosive bestseller, "Sellout: The inside story of President Clinton's impeachment," Schippers prosecuted the House of Representatives' case against Bill Clinton. According to Schippers, investigative reporter Jayna Davis has compelling evidence indicating the government knew in February 1995 about Middle Eastern terrorists operating in Oklahoma City, planning the bombing in that city, the demise of TWA Flight 800 and the World Trade Center attacks. To this day, says Schippers, the FBI refuses even to take possession of the evidence.
Metcalf's daily streaming radio show can be heard on TalkNetDaily weekdays from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern time.
By Geoff Metcalf
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com
Q: David, why don't we start off with you explaining who Jayna Davis is and how you got involved with her?
A: This is a strange story. At the time of the April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City bombing, Jayna Davis was an investigative reporter for, I think it was a CBS outlet down there.
Q: It was an NBC station, KFOR-TV.
A: Okay, NBC in Oklahoma City. She immediately began an investigation to determine whether or not there was any Mideastern connection. At the time, she started out probably within minutes of the explosion, and she did a job the likes of which I have never seen. This woman is probably one of the greatest investigators I've ever worked with. After I came back from Washington, a lot of people wrote me letters. Some of them were complimentary – some of them were not complimentary. In fact, some of them were anything but complimentary. However, she wrote me a letter and made some statement like, "I have information about the Oklahoma City bombing and a Middle Eastern connection."
Q: And what was your reaction?
A: Well, very honestly, I just kind of put it aside. I wrote everybody back that sent something with a return address, and it was just kind of "thank you very much," and so on and so forth. She wrote back and enclosed some material from her investigation. She asked that I just "…please read this and call me." I read it, and then I did call her. She said, "You've just seen the tip of the iceberg. I have a lot more. Would you be interested in looking at it?" I told her, "Why don't you go to the FBI or to the people who are interested?"
Q: Guess what, David?
A: Yeah, she said, "I went to the FBI with everything I have here, and they refused to take it." This was long before the McVeigh trial. So I said, "Why don't you send it up to me?" She said, "I'm not going to send it up. I will bring it up." So she and her husband – and they are not rich people – got on an airplane and flew up here to Chicago. They brought three large – I mean thick, probably six-inch thick binders – and a tape of all her material that she had aired during the course of her investigation. The tape itself is fascinating. And it showed me that there was something more than just the usual crazy what do you call it …
Q: Conspiracy theory?
A: Yes. In fact, that was my first thought. "Here we go again," you know. Another goofy conspiracy theory saying it was a big conspiracy and saying the CIA was involved and all that type of stuff.
A: When she brought that stuff up, and I started reading it – these were not just dreams. These were affidavits from people. I saw the warning that was issued about the bombing. I saw the affidavits. I saw evidence that there were nine security cameras that picked up the people running from the place before the bombing. I found out that the FBI had seized all those films, and no one has ever seen them. That's how I got to meet her and to know her. This woman is not a nut by a long shot.
Q: Here's the fascinating thing that is so flummoxing. Those of us who suffered through the dark ages of the Clinton regime understand why his administration might or probably was diffident to share that kind of information. However, there's a new sheriff in town. How come the Ashcroft Justice Department isn't on this data like white on rice. I mean, David, they're taking FBI reports from people in Des Moine who say their neighbor looks weird!
A: Yes, unfortunately, that's what they are doing. They are going around talking to all these people. Some of my friends who are federal agents have been told to stay away from this. They are looking in all the wrong places for all the wrong things. I am thoroughly convinced, based upon the material I have received from Jayna, based upon the things told to my agent friends – nothing that is secure or top secret, but purely from material that's available to anyone who wants to look for it – I am thoroughly convinced that there was a dead-bang Middle Eastern connection in the Oklahoma City bombing. I think bin Laden was behind it. I think that there were Middle Eastern people on the scene running away.
Q: At the time of the bombing, I heard these same kinds of reports coming out about a potential Middle Eastern connection, and Strassmeir and the all the mysterious John Does. At the time, one of the arguments was, well wait a minute, if terrorists did it, terrorists do bad stuff so that they can take credit for it. And if they were involved in the Oklahoma City bombing, why aren't they jumping up and bragging, "See what we did to the great Satan? See what we did!"
A: They still haven't done it on the [WTC] towers, have they?
Q: I was waiting for you to say that. Thank you.
A: Bin Laden came close to saying it. He came close. I think their attitude is, the people who count know who did it. At the time, I didn't think so much of it – I'm talking about 1999-2000, before the election. But now I can understand why it was vital to the Clinton administration not to have …
Q: I can understand that.
A: But what I couldn't understand at the time were the professionals. I'm used to working with FBI agents, ATF agents, IRS agents. These guys are the most dedicated and decent human beings on the face of the earth. I had one working with me out in Washington. He didn't care that we were after the president of the United States. This was a stand-up guy. The agents I met in Washington were all great people, hard working, dedicated.
Q: But David, we have also heard from guys like Gary Aldrich and Notra Trulock …
Q: … and they all tell us it is not the grunt in the field. These are the salt of the earth. It's the cancer that has infected the management, the bureaucracy.
A: That's exactly right. That was the hump I couldn't get over. I couldn't believe that anyone who carried that gold badge, whether in the FBI or the ATF or any of those places, could go along with any kind of a deal like that.
Q: Have you been able to determine if in fact the FBI is right now, today bridling their agents or local authorities from taking out people that they know to be terrorists?
A: Do I think they are? Yes.
Q: OK, you think they are. But do you have any documented proof?
A: No, but I've got some pretty good information. I know there are things going down in Oklahoma City right now. When Jayna Davis brought all her material to the FBI and said, "Here, maybe you can use this," this wasn't somebody who said, "I want an exclusive," or, "I want to get my name in the paper." She brought it to the FBI office in Oklahoma City. An agent said, "Well, wait a minute. Let me check." He went back and returned and said, "We don't want it." Now that wasn't his decision. That came from somewhere else. And to this day, they haven't looked at it. I know, and Jayna has told me, there are individuals who saw this Middle Eastern man running away. We have the affidavits. I've read the affidavits. The FBI interviewed those people and tried to get them to say – they weren't putting words in their mouths, but they were kind of hinting, "Wasn't it this guy?" and show them a picture of Nichols. They [the witnesses] said, "Absolutely not. It was a Middle Easterner." Those 302s have never surfaced.
Q: David, you are a hero to a lot of people for what happened and what didn't happen in the impeachment proceedings. It is reasonable to assume that you still have some connections with Congress. Have you contacted any of the Congress critters to talk about this?
A: Yes, I have. The Jayna Davis material and the Oklahoma City bombing are just a part of the stuff I've got. I have information indicating there was going to be a massive attack in lower Manhattan. I couldn't get anybody to listen to me.
Q: When was that?
A: About a month-and-a-half before Sept. 11. The original thing that I heard – and you might ask Mr. Bodansky about that – Mr. Bodansky talked to Jayna Davis. He was one of the people behind the warning that came out Feb. 19, 1995, and this was the warning that I saw: that there was going to be an attack on the United States by bin Laden's people, that the original target – and this is the way it reads – the original target was supposed to be the White House and the Capitol building, and they were going to use commercial airliners as bombs.
Q: I remember a story out of the Philippines where they popped some …
A: That was the second one. They caught a guy over there in the Philippines.
Q: Same scenario.
A: Right away, Jayna put that same person together with Nichols over in the Philippines. Jayna had an individual – and this is one of the wild stories – Jayna found an individual who worked in a tavern in Oklahoma City who put this Middle Eastern individual together with McVeigh three days before the bombing. She ran the story – and to show you how sharp she is – she ran the story and, of course, completely concealed the identity of the person who was talking but showed a picture of a tavern. Now the tavern that they chose to show was not the actual tavern at which McVeigh and this guy had been.
Q: What happened a couple of days after she aired that?
A: Two nights after she aired that, this guy showed up at the right tavern. And when he was asked later how he found the tavern, he said, "I saw it on television." There you go, put him together with McVeigh two days before. She found people that found a large truck that stank like it was filled with fertilizer parked outside a motel down there. She got people in the motel to identify McVeigh as having been near that truck. If you read the stuff that she's got and talked to the people that she has developed – but I can't get anybody to listen.
Q: This is astonishing! What about Ashcroft? He's the man.
A: I tried to reach General Ashcroft. I tried going through a couple of the congressmen. Now remember, when I first started this – this was like in February/March of this year – I started getting this information from her. I reached out for a couple of people and realized that I was going nowhere with the Janet Reno crowd. As long as Janet Reno was around, we were not going to get anything done. So I waited until Ashcroft was confirmed, and then I started reaching out for him. I couldn't get anybody to talk to me.
Q: Gee, that sounds reminiscent of Clinton. They used you like a tissue and then discarded you forever to be ignored.
A: There was no question about that. I became a pariah in Washington, let's face it. I did my job, and I wouldn't change a thing. But to a lot of people out there – and I specifically exclude people like Henry Hyde, Bob Barr, Graham, the people on the committee, they were fine – but it was the idea they couldn't do anything.
Q: David, I was wondering, because you were kind of Scribean in the foreshadowing you approached them with, maybe they're just embarrassed, because you had a warning and they ignored it. Could it be just that?
A: I didn't call out there and say, "I've got a warning," or anything like that. I was talking primarily about the infiltration of Hamas – how they're moving the money. I have evidence on that. I have all kinds of material. You know, the only time any terrorist money was seized was there in Chicago. An FBI agent did an affidavit for seizure of, I forget how much – $700,000 or something – of terrorist Hamas funds. The thing is still bubbling, but they've got the money.
So I was trying to say, "Look, you say you're looking for where the money is." This was now after Sept. 11. I've charts with people showing where it comes from, how you get it, and so on and so forth. Phyllis Schlafly finally apparently made some calls. She called me one day and said, "I've talked to John Ashcroft, and he'll call you tomorrow." The next morning, I did get a call from the Justice Department, but it wasn't from Ashcroft. Now frankly, I didn't expect the attorney general himself to call me.
Q: But some deputy might.
A: Right, and it was a deputy. One of the deputies and I started to tell him what I had, some of the material that I had, and he said, "You know, we don't start our investigations at the top." I said, "What do you mean?"
"We don't start our investigations with the Attorney General," he said. "Let me look into this, and I'll have somebody get back to you right away."
Q: When was that?
A: That was like July 15. I still haven't heard from anybody.
Q: Who was the guy? Do you have a name?
A: I had a name, and I can't remember it now. I threw it away after about a month.
Q: I'd love to track that guy down.
A: He probably did pass it on to somebody, and they just said, "Oh, Schippers is another conspiracy guy. He's part of that right-wing conspiracy."
Q: Yeah, that lifelong Democrat from Chicago. David, regardless, if among all the stuff you have from Jayna, if half of it is b.s., the FBI allegedly is jonesing for any kind of information or data. You would think they would be all over you like white on rice.
A: That is exactly right! You'd think that they would. Jayna received a call – I think she said 15 minutes before the first plane hit the tower. She received a call from an individual she described as having a Middle Eastern accent, and all he said was, "Turn on your television." She then received a call from a friend of hers who is in Naval Intelligence. And by the way, I might add, the one intelligence agency in the United States government that has been doing a magnificent job is Naval Intelligence. This guy called her from overseas, and he said to her, "The same people did this (the towers) that did Oklahoma City," and, "Get out of the house. You are in danger."
Later, she got another
strange telephone call. She called the FBI and told them, "Look,
I've got material, I've got some information. I've talked to some
people who have information about some Middle Eastern groups here
in Oklahoma City right now that you might be interested in."